“Rioting and Shouting While Playing the Guitar” - An Interview with ZIGYAKU of GUDON

Readers of General Speech should no doubt be familiar with ZIGYAKU, the intensely powerful and creative guitarist from Japanese hardcore punk bands Bastard, Judgement, Half Years, and Ogreish Organism, head of the cult 80s hardcore label Kagai Mousou, 90s hardcore label Fast Nail, and the band he cut his teeth in, the legendary Hiroshima hardcore punk band GUDON.

This interview was originally conducted, and published in Japanese by Takeshi, of the excellent heavy / experimental rock band BORIS. Boris have a new album out entitled "No" on Third Man Records, which is one of their most hardcore punk influenced offerings to date, and includes a cover of Gudon's track "Fundamental Error". I knew from hearing most of Boris’ varied catalog, that they have a real understanding of a wide array of sounds, including a deep appreciation of punk and hardcore. Upon initially reading this interview however, it became apparent that not only does Takeshi have an understanding and appreciation for it, he’s an expert, and his interview with Zigyaku came from such a place of great personal interest, I was completely sucked into the pure enthusiasm in which which they explored various topics together. It was exactly the level of knowledge and attitude you want for a great interview, and instantly I knew this was something that fans abroad absolutely had to read.

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Introduction (Takeshi - BORIS)

Punk/hardcore guitarist Zigyaku interviewed by Takeshi of Boris??” Many readers will probably be wondering how this came about.

After my “baptism” into punk/hardcore when I was a junior high school student, thereafter I was totally immersed into that musical pursuit. At that time, the Japanese band that I was particularly fond of was Gudon, active in the 80s-90s hardcore scene in Hiroshima. Zigyaku was Gudon’s guitarist, after which he also led legendary hardcore bands like Bastard and Judgement which impacted the scene on a global scale. His numerous compositions were knit with riffs and a sound that was unorthodox for the time, and were an indispensable component to my own musical upbringing.

The bold usage of riffs at first listen are actually finely constructed, a creative play style that shows delicate and intelligent expression. From long ago, while reading many interviews and articles related to punk/hardcore, I wondered how that unique musical profile and those songs and that sound were born. I wanted to know more information (= secrets) about the methodology and process. Rather than from the viewpoint of a music writer or critic, as a mutual artist I figured there was bound to be some topics we could delve into, leading to this interview.

Furthermore, when listening to Zigyaku speak I truly felt “this is part of music history” and recognized that in this diverse world a way of life such as his would be good thing to share. I would like to take this opportunity to give my deep gratitude to Guy, who accepted my abrupt offer and made contact on the occasion of this interview, and of course Zigyaku, who earnestly answered my questions in spite of the marathon interview session.

Note that names and expressions etc. in Zigyaku’s answers are transcribed exactly as they were given, with editor’s/translator’s notes only added in parentheses.

Takeshi, Boris

Takeshi (hereafter written as “T”): First of all, I’d like to ask several questions about Gudon compilation albums released in 1992, 2004, and then for the first time in 16 years recently (on 11/11, 2020). This time a DVD has been included, a memorial disc for vocalist Happy who passed away in 2014. As an original and founding member guitarist of the band, I’m sure you have recurring special memories. If you have any comments about this release, please, by all means.

ZIGYAKU (hereafter written as “Z”): Everything is left to Shin (Guy, ex-Gudon member, current member of Origin of M, owner of Blood Sucker Records) so if he says “Hey I want to do a re-release”, I’m just like “Sure, go ahead.” Then after hearing it was the 6th anniversary of Happy’s death, I thought, “oh, that’s right.”

Ever since I quit Gudon, to be honest I wasn’t really on good terms with Happy, and we basically had no interactions for a period of time, but all the time we had spent playing together, and the visit to see him in the hospital days before he died, all of that and other memories came back.

And, then I thought, certainly all the things he did should be left behind for the world. At any rate, in a way he was shady with an unreasonable way of life, but I think he was the embodiment of what it means to be “punk”, and I think there’s a lot to feel from that unique voice he had and his singing.

With that, I’d really like the younger generations of the world who don’t know Gudon’s music to take this opportunity to give it a listen.

T: Included on the DVD for the recent release is the one-time reunion show that took place at Shinjuku Loft in 2009.

While you did not perform at that reunion show, unfortunately Gudon’s reunion activity was limited to only a year due to Happy’s hospitalization, but were there any activities or plans you participated in at that time?

Z: No, there were no plans like that.

At the time of the reunion show Shin (Guy) did say to me, “I want you to play guitar”, but I immediately declined (laughs). I was never really a fan of reunion shows or things like that. There were times with other bands when they wanted to do a reunion show and I refused from the outset, but after long and enthusiastic persuasion, I eventually felt, “Alright, let’s do this.” Gudon didn’t really attempt to persuade me. After declining 2 times, it was basically like, “OK, I hear you.” (laughs)

T: I see. If there was just one more push perhaps you would have participated. Since you played in the Bastard and Judgement reunion shows, I had wondered why you didn’t perform in the Gudon one. That you’re not really into reunion shows, is the Zigyaku mindset like, “my current sound” or “my next sound” has more importance? You’ve been away from the scene for a while, but do you have that sort of conviction right now?

Z: I can’t go as far as calling it conviction, but I just don’t feel in my skin that I’d want to play songs from the past under a name from the past, that’s all. In any case if you’re going to do it, it’s much more exciting to be playing new songs, or in a new band. Actually at the time of the Bastard reunion, there was talk of making a new record, but schedules didn’t meet and nothing materialized. Anyway, well, nonetheless playing live is a lot of fun.

T: Please tell me about any profoundly memorable Gudon songs. Also if you have any anecdotes to share surrounding such songs.

Z: I guess I’d say “Namari no Ai.”

For that one, an idea occurred to us to put a poppy melody into the rhythm of a Buddhist chant to make that song…

One time Happy got us this show in Tokuyama (Yamaguchi prefecture), and when we went it was apparently some sort of religious gathering, and the show was to be performed in a traditional Japanese room with tatami straw mats. So, everyone is in their socks, and while this hardcore punk band is playing and it’s the height of chaos the other people are sitting in the seiza position without the slightest of movement, but once we played “Namari no Ai,” everyone stood up and started dancing like crazy. Now that was an interesting scene.

T: Just imagining that scene is surreal, but the appeal of “Namari no Ai” is truly impressive (laughs)

Thinking about how the equipment was set up, and then performing in socks, it’s a rare situation… I’m very intrigued.

Z: With socks on tatami mats, you slip easily. Playing guitar while standing with legs spread apart on the straw mats, if aligned with the direction of the straw, your feet will slide and spread apart more and more. Just finding that out makes me glad we played there (laughs).

T: Did you play there at the same volume as a usual show?

Z: There were equipment problems so it wasn’t as loud as usual, but it was pretty loud. Probably about the same volume as a usual studio rehearsal.

T: Even when listening to Gudon now I find it to be innovative and unorthodox, but how do you yourself feel if you listen to the Gudon of those days again?

Z: “Self-righteousness” is what I feel (laughs).

Also, I wrote the majority of the music and lyrics, so it would have been better if I entrusted more to the other members. I mean, if I listen to the words that Happy wrote now it’s much more interesting. Furthermore, if you compiled everything (written by different members) together and listened, on the contrary wouldn’t the lack of a consistent genre or style be more idiosyncratic? That’s another thought I had.

T: I see. From a bird’s eye view, the methodology of one member (Zigyaku) controlling the individual vision completely into form, and then the methodology of a collaboration with each member that transforms ideas into form (songs), both ways are connected to the abundant variety of Gudon.

From here, I’d like to go in order asking about more biographical topics during this session. From about when, and how did you start listening to punk/hardcore?

Z: For the people of my generation living in the countryside, I think we all probably had the same introduction, but, first I heard Anarchy (Japanese punk rock band formed in 1978) as junior high school students, and after that I started listening to (other late 70’s Japanese) bands like The Mods, The Roosters, and Th eRockers, which led me to see the film “Burst City” (with many musicians from those bands in the movie), and I was amazed by The Stalin in the film, and went to them live and was amazed again. Then I became aware of the independent music scene, and got information from Doll magazine, learned that hardcore punk was a more intense sound of punk, and started buying everything I could from mail order and import record stores.

At the time, there was only one store in all of Hiroshima that sold issues of Doll, and they usually only had a few copies so always around the release date I’d call up the store daily asking “have they come in yet?” and if they told me, “They’ve arrived”, I’d get on my bike and hightail it to the shop to buy them.

So, that’s pretty much what it was like.

T: My generation is a bit later, but basically it was the exact same flow for me as well. In those days, it was a time when the trend to “be normal” was much more prevalent than today, and the cultural regulation and guidance from TV broadcasting and major music magazines was extremely strong. Back when the size of those magazines was still small they were the entrance to a hidden world; Takarajima, Foolsmate, and Doll were my source of information.

When I was in middle school the first issue I bought of Doll that had The Exploited on the cover and a feature on the Kyushu punk scene had a huge impact on me.

Z: In terms of photos, one that suddenly comes to mind was a photo for an introduction to The Comes that was a tight close-up of guitarist Naoki hiding his face with both hands. That one left a strange impression on me.

Usually, they are more apt to introduce a band by showing all of the members posing, aren’t they? And if it’s just one member, generally it’s going to be the singer. So in this case it was just a close-up of the guitarist’s face, but not only that he was covering his face― I remember thinking that was extremely cool.

(Above: Zigyaku covering his face in a manner similar to the photo of Naoki mentioned above. - We couldn’t get permission to post that photo, but it’s in Doll Magazine No. 12 if you want to seek it out)

T: Did you take inspiration from anything besides sound, like fashion and such?

Z: Of course we took inspiration from the fashion as well, but we didn’t know how to stand our hair up so we stood it up with sugar water, and they didn’t sell spikes anywhere so we bought these pieces of round metal from a Western-style apparel shop and banged them in, stuff like that.

T: What kind of music were you listening to before encountering punk/hardcore?

Z: Kayōkyoku (Japanese Showa-era pop music) and film music. The first record I bought was “Hirake! Tulip” by Kanpei Hazama. The 2nd was the theme from “Convoy”. I also used to like Kai Band (a Japanese rock band popular in the 70’s).

T: Did you get interested in the “Convoy Theme” from actually seeing that Sam Peckinpah movie? After that, did film music have a big influence on your own compositions or musical experience?

Z: Oh yeah, I went to buy it on my way home after seeing the movie. The way they’re talking on CB radio in the song was so cool.

Once I started playing music, yeah, I think there was influence from film music. However, rather than a specific song, it’s more like the images I saw in my head while hearing the background music, or the emotions I got from films were being recalled, I suppose. Sound, sight, and other senses working together, so to speak. And so, when writing a song, I think a part of it comes from calling to mind a sight or sensation by linking those things unconsciously.

T: That methodology of letting sound coordinate with a visual element is the same for Boris. Each song is a soundtrack to an imagined short film or scene, and those become tied together to form the narrative that is called an album = piece of music.

I often get a dramatic feeling from your guitar phrases, and I think the “impression” or “sensation” from the output of when you changed the visual element into sound is why they can be heard like that.

Z: Boris has actually worked on the soundtrack for “Confessions” (2010 Japanese film “Kokuhaku”, directed by Tetsuya Nakashima, based on the novel by Kanae Minato), of course.

I like that movie. I’ve watched it again and I really think the music merges with the cinematography quite well. Especially the backwards scene with “Farewell”. Did you write that song after seeing the scene?

T: That song (“Farewell”) was recorded for our album released in 2005, “PINK”, so it was completed before the movie “Confessions”. Boris also has a bunch of songs in Jim Jarmusch’s 2009 film “The Limits of Control”, and I recall getting the offer from Nakashima, who, being a fan of Jarmusch, saw his film and apparently thought, “Who is this music?”

We didn’t know how our music would be used in the film until we saw a preview, and we were surprised to find it in the last scene. Well, Boris songs are generally used for unsettling scenes I guess (laughs).

Z: Oh, so that’s how it happened.

When it came out I saw it in the theater, and at that time I remember thinking there were a lot of unsettling scenes. Like the pool scene. Those scenes were Boris, then (laughs).

T: By the way, you never got into hard rock or metal?

Z: I knew famous hard rock and metal songs, but listening to them didn’t excite me.

T: When was the first time you picked up a guitar, and what led to that moment?

Z: In middle school I started folk guitar with Shin (Guy), who was a classmate at the time. What got us started was probably no different than learning shoji (Japanese chess), or trying to draw manga― somehow we just got interested in it. As for electric guitar, when we became high school students, of course Shin and I went to buy one. I remember it being like going from a bicycle to a motorcycle. Because electrics were expensive we couldn’t buy them when we were in middle school.

T: Was it at that time when you and Guy (Shin) had the conversation, “Let’s form a punk/hardcore band”?

Z: No, not at all.

He went down the wrong path, dropped out of high school, became a street vendor and such, so we were out of touch for a while (laughs).

When we reunited, somehow we both happened to be interested in punk, so I guess it started from there.

T: My impression of you with a black Les Paul guitar is really strong, but when looking at photos of you playing live in the Gudon days you were using various guitars, weren’t you?

Z: At first I wasn’t picky about guitars, so as long as it was cheap I thought anything was fine and used various models. In those days I also didn’t understand that difference in sound either.

Of course I played strats, Explorers, and all kinds of weirdly shaped guitars, maybe around 10 different ones? I think I probably played just about anything besides telecasters.

Then when I found that Les Paul, it really struck me and I thought, “Ah, this is the one.” I came to know that the model is often called a Black Beauty and liked it even more, and have been enamored with it ever since.

Since way back I’ve always loved the color black, which I guess is influenced by Hakaider (dark hero type of villain character from the 70’s Japanese “Tokusatsu” genre TV series “Kikaider”).

T: I see, so you really just liked playing guitar in any case.

Z: Not really, as far as playing the guitar goes, now or even then I don’t like it that much. I just like making loud sounds, and being able to express something with a guitar. Guitarists, even when you go over their houses, they’re always playing guitar, and you just feel impressed like, “Whoah, you really like the guitar,” but in my case, unless I’m writing a song I don’t touch it. That’s why even to this day I can’t play do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do in one try.

T: For me it’s the exact same, it’s the same sense as drawing, painting or filming― the only difference is the medium for expression being a guitar. There is no right answer to how it should be interpreted; If it touches the heart of the listener in some way it then becomes something we share, and I think that’s good.

Z: Right.

So, rather than a “guitarist”, I’m more like a “person rioting and shouting while playing the guitar”.

T: Back in those days, were there any guitarists who influenced you that you thought were “cool” or “I want to be like that”, “I want to play like that”?

Z: There are a lot of guitarists I thought were cool. At the time among Japanese players I liked Tam (The Stalin, G-Zet), Naoki (The Comes, Lip Cream), Randy Uchida (G.I.S.M.), Lemmy Yamada (The Execute), and Hiroshi from Kikeiji.

As far as overseas guitarists go, Bones (Discharge).

T: You mentioned (Roboman) Hakaider, but were you also a fan of Japanese Tokusatsu film/TV, especially those kind of dark characters?

Z: I grew up in the golden age of Tokusatsu films, so I loved them then and still do now.

Now, I’m part of a “hardcore kaiju club” with several members including Koba (ex-Bastard, current member of Systematic Death, Rydeen, Rocky & the Sweden, etc.) that gets together to watch monster movies and stuff like that.

Since my childhood, rather than with the heroes I’ve felt more appeal in monsters and mysterious characters. Especially Hakaider, including the form and backbone of the character, I find just about everything about him cool, and really love the character. They instigate his appearance before and leading up to it (in the film), and finally in the moment when he appeared, he uses the Haikader Shot (his gun) to annihilate a group of fighters, and when the Head Professor Gil, shouts, “That’s good! That’s good, Hakaider!”, I thought, “Oh! That is good!” Although it’s actually not at all good (laughs).

T: (Laughs) I also feel drawn to the mysterious form of the monster/villain more than the hero/protagonist. It’s as if they are made in the mirror reflection of the anxiety and fears of children, but there is this irregularity or defect, and their origins or creations that are somewhat tragic or pitiful, creating a drama that I like.

Now back to equipment talk (laughs), you’ve always been a fan of Marshall amps, but any model in particular? What is it you like about Marshalls?

Z: I like the JCM800.

When coming to Tokyo, Origasa from Mad Conflux (currently of Pile Driver, Death Side) and I went to buy the same amp from a shop in Ochanomizu, and loaded both of them into the same van. When going up a hill, the back hatch came open and one of the amps fell out and went tumbling down the hill. I remember saying, “Hey, Origasa, there goes your amp!” (laughs)

I think he still holds a grudge for that.

What I like about Marshalls is the way they don’t sound good unless they are warmed up, the analog aspect of them I guess. I like the warm sound that comes from warm tubes. Particularly with the JCM800 the knobs are simple and powerful, and I like the overall kind of unrefined feeling. Also, simply put Marshalls have a great sound. I also like the logo.

T: The Marshall head rolling down the hill, that must have been quite a sight (laughs).

Tube amps are great, aren’t they? They require some labor but you can only get that sound from them. I don’t really have an impression of distorted tones from the JCM800 though, so are you using effects pedals for distortion? Or do you just use the amp directly, cranked up to 10 to get “that sound”?

Z: Since the latter half of Bastard, I’ve been using a Boss Metal Zone pedal. Now, that’s the only one I use.

T: I think your genuine activity with bands started from Gudon, but could you talk in more detail about the band’s formation?

Z: Our first vocalist, One!, had a bunch of punk and hardcore records that we used to gather and listen to, and before long we decided to try writing songs.

So, we started writing our own songs. The song “Self Hate” on our first cassette tape release is the first song I ever wrote. For the demo of that song I was playing around recording at my house on a metal pencil case for drums, along with guitar and vocals. After that I started thinking, “I want to play with a band.” Then my first experience in the studio came out of asking for help from members of the band Kyosanto, who were acquaintances of mine.

T: Speaking of Kyosanto, recently some of their undiscovered recordings were released by Bitter Lake Recordings (Brooklyn-based label specializing in reissues of the Japanese underground). Back in those days the “dangerous hard punk feeling” was intense.

Akito, the drummer from Kyosanto, also played drums in Gudon and Half Years. It was particularly common in the region, but, as it seems was there a shortage of drummers?

Z: They were very hard to come by.

I’m not sure but, I guess not many people want to take up an instrument that they can’t play at home.

T: So, why did you choose “Zigyaku” (“Self-torture” in Japanese) as your stage name?

You said you were a big fan of Kikeiji, but did you also have influence from other Japanese hard punk bands such as Masturbation, The Stalin, early Sodom, early Aburadako, or literature of the bizarre as well?

Z: I have always preferred hard punk.

When I first heard hardcore punk my impression was that it was too fast and too loud and something I just didn’t understand. The bands you asked about, I completely loved them.

I’m not sure how to put it, but if comparing to film, it’s like the eeriness of Japanese horror, or the indigenous and viscous feeling clinging to your skin. And the lyrics, digging into them, if I think about it there were a lot that were very literary.

In terms of actual literature, I like novels and would often read them, but I don’t think they had influence on my music. As an elementary school student I was borrowing from the library and reading nothing but works by Edogawa Ranpo, which was The Boy Detectives Club series, and even now I’m not interesting in reading macabre or bizarre literature.

We’ve often been asked “Were the lyrics for ‘Namari no Ai’ inspired by Dogra Magra (a novel by Kyusaku Yumeno)?” but actually I’ve never read it.

Using the name “Zigyaku” is without a doubt an influence of Kikeiji (Japanese band whose name means “deformed child”). If I had a time machine though, I’d go back and tell myself, “Hey! Don’t bother! You won’t be able to get anyone to call you by that!” (laughs)

T: No no, because now you are “Zigyaku of the world”!

For the lyrics of “Namari no Ai”, I also had the interpretation that “it was all a dream”, so perhaps that is why it was seen as inspired by the “dream of the unborn child” sequence in Dogra Magra… is what I was thinking and why maybe there was some influence from that kind of literature, so that it is surprising there wasn’t any of that influence.

I was also reading The Boy Detectives Club by Edogawa Ranpo in elementary school, but in middle school I also had a period of being really into Japanese bizarre and grotesque literature and so on, which was influence from listening to bands like The Stalin and Masturbation.

Besides music and literature, like we spoke about previously with the tokusatsu film stuff, did you also have influence from movies or manga/anime, or television dramas?

Z: Yeah, I think so. Because I always liked all kinds of subculture. I think various subculture taught me that the experience of getting your own emotions shaken up is necessary for you to be able to shake up the emotions of others. I think the influence of film was especially big. Back in those days I worked a part-time job at a movie theater, and at that time they were all free entry within Hiroshima city. Nights I also worked at a rental video store, so I could rent as many as I wanted. In other words, I was watching movies every day.

T: I envy you, immersed in music and movies day after day.

We talked about the “Convoy Theme” and film music, but are there any works of film that left a deep impression on you? Do you have a favorite director?

Z: No matter how many times I watch “Lupin III: The Castle of Cagliostro” it’s the best!

As for newer works I’d say “The Mist”, “The Butterfly Effect”, “Requiem for a Dream”, and “Memories of Matsuko”. Although those are all unhappy endings (laughs).

For directors I liked Sam Raimi and Sogo Ishii.

T: From Hayao Miyazaki to bad endings, that’s quite a broad spectrum (laughs). Back in those days Sam Raimi’s “Evil Dead” and Sogo Ishii’s “Burst City” were like a rite of passage for our gloomy selves.

So let me ask you, what was the intended message in “Namari no Ai”?

Z: “Ai” (Love)!

T: Well I guess there are various forms of love…

Z: Exactly like that, that there are various forms of love, was actually one of the themes. But anyway, I think it’s good when the listeners come up with their own interpretation.

T: Gudon’s first release was “Fushu” (“Rotten Smell” in Japanese) on cassette tape in 1984, but you also started the label Kasai Mousou Records yourselves to release your music completely independently. Without depending on some other label and dispatching it by yourselves locally in Hiroshima at a time when there was no internet and only small range communications and word of mouth, I think it must have been very labor intensive, but do you have any stories or lasting impressions to share from your first release?

Z: At that time for local labels, rather than the idea of starting a label, it was more like that we wanted to put it out ourselves and when we eventually did we realized, “Well then, I guess we should add a label name.”

Certainly there were hardships, but the interest and fun in it won out I guess. We had our home-dubbed tapes and took them door to door to all the local record stores, asking them if they would display them for us, and finally we found a place that would accept them. Then, we’d go by daily and ask “did any sell?”, and I still remember to this day the happiness when we sold one.

These days there are so many ways to publicize and anyone can send anything around the world on the internet, but personally I feel it more rewarding when the obstacle you are trying to get over has some degree of height. If a sifting screen has larger holes, we try to be larger than the holes so as not to be sifted through. Then there is a smaller chance of dust remaining on the screen.

T: “If a sifting screen has larger holes, try to be larger than the holes not to be sifted through, then there is a smaller chance of dust remaining,” I completely agree.

Everyone is expressive, and we can’t lose our self-respect. The times change, means of sending and receiving information and devices dramatically advance, but when a creator delivers their work to a receiver, I think this is the core part we should always keep in mind.

That said, in those days I also called all the record stores I could find, one after another, and wrote letters directly to labels and so on.

Nowadays when you buy music, if it’s between CD’s and vinyl, do you always go for vinyl records?

Z: Many years ago all of my stereo equipment broke and I disposed of it all, so since then I’ve just been listening to subscription music. So now I’m not buying CD’s or records. One time I was listening on one those subscriptions and a song came on that made me think, “Haven’t I heard this before?”, and when I realized it was (my own band) Bastard I fell off my chair. “Who uploaded that on there without permission?!”, I thought. I have some idea though, so I’m dealing with it.

T: I figured you were listening completely analog so that is unexpected. So are the platforms you are using Apple Music, Amazon, Spotify, etc.?

Z: I listen on a smart speaker. I bought a smart speaker, and the subscription was included with that.

T: Boris has also added recordings to those subscription services a while ago, but this past July when we released our new album “NO” we did so as digital-only at first, and we used Bandcamp for the first time to do that by way of our own management.

A “support underground” stance has taken root on Bandcamp in particular, and these days punk/hardcore bands are actively releasing and sharing music.

Z: I am interested in Bandcamp from the music providing side. It looks especially good as a means to announce a release.

T: The vocals on your first album Fushu were done by One!, and after some investigation I was surprised to find out about (his noise industrial project) Dissecting Table. You also participated as a guest musician on his 1986 release, Ultimate Psychological Description.

Z: One! at the time was really into noisecore, The Offenders, Hüsker’s Dü’s first album― really chaotic stuff. Of course he liked Einstürzende Neubauten and Psychic TV as well. For that live show we played as a 3-piece with Tatsuya Yoshida (Ruins, Koenji Hyakkei, etc.) on percussion.

T: Did he (One!) make requests from you like “I want this type of sound” and such? Or was it a situation where you were free to play as you wanted?

Z: He basically said, “Play as you like.” That was a live recording, but on the day of the recording we played some songs, and played through without a proper rehearsal. I went to stay over at One!’s place, and I was surprised to find steel beams and drum cans in such a cramped room. I said to him, are these drum cans for your bath? (laughs)

T: So he used those for so-called metal percussion, then.

Did you listen to noise music at that time, or have any connection with the local scene?

Z: Personally I’m not really interested in noise music. It reminds of listening to something like the hustle and bustle of a metropolis, and just makes me completely anxious.

T: Is that right? My impression of your guitar playing has been that it contains textures of noise music, for example there are many parts where I could sense some musical expression in slight feedback/howling sounds.

Z: I have always liked feedback and howling sounds from way back when. Also pick-scraping sounds. These weren’t influence from noise music, but I suppose perhaps in essence they are shared elements.

T: I always thought (Gudon’s 2nd release from 1985) “Zannin Seija” (7”, Flexi-disc) was a prime example of noisecore, and I remember thinking when I first heard it that there was no way the guitar sound could be amplifier distortion alone. So if for only my personal interest I’d like to ask, were you using any effects at that time? Or rather was it a result of the studio mixing process that brought about that sound?

Z: Well, that one was recorded in a rehearsal studio on a cassette recorder, and if I remember correctly I chained 2 distortion pedals to the amp with all the knobs up to 10. I wanted to produce a huge distorted sound, so I simply thought if I double my distortion and turn the amp settings to max it should achieve that. Also, we were all determined to be so loud that everything was howling and became distorted.

T: I see, that’s pretty much as I expected. My continuous research was effective.

For example, I like the sound of Disorder’s “Gi Faen I Nasjonalitenten Din” (Recorded live in Norway on a Sony Walkman in 1985), but that sort of sound is not something you can really aim to record. I think that clearly many brutal miracles are occurring.

By the way Gudon’s songs “Little Dreamer” and “Nervous Hog” on the “Shodoku Gig” compilation are extremely noisy and fast, yet melodious, with an amazing dramatic feeling.

Back to “Zannin Seija”, I felt its sound and attitude was linked to Kyushu noisecore bands like Gai and Confuse who came out at roughly the same time, but, did you know about those bands?

Z: “Brutal miracles”, that’s a good expression.

Yes of course I knew about Gai and Confuse, and I had all of their recordings. I enjoyed both bands.

T: Also, I’m very curious about what 2 distortion pedals you used.

Z: I can’t remember the name of the maker of those distortion units. I used some mysterious boxes I found at a secondhand store.

Anyway so for the flexi-disc, when we brought the recording to the pressing plant, we were shown the range on this machine that looked like it would display the register for submarine sonar, and the technician said “This wavelength is the same wavelength as outright noise, are your sure you want to go with this?”, and we replied, “This is the way to go,” and put it out as it was. So with that it became noisecore on its own accord.

Afterwards, I heard that The Jesus and Mary Chain’s debut album (“Psychocandy”, 1985) was indeed completed in a similar fashion, and I had a feeling of kinship between our bands.

T: “This is the way to go”, “It became noisecore on its own accord,” that’s perfect.

You mentioned The Jesus and Mary Chain. Were you also listening to that so-called “wall-of-sound guitar rock”? Even though they were slightly after, for example My Bloody Valentine, etc.?

Z: At the time I was working at an import record store, and so when new arrivals came in I gave them a listen, as I had to write up a short introductory statement on each price label. So I listened to everything that came in, and any bands I personally liked I pursued. However, from that genre the only band I really got into was probably The Jesus and Mary Chain, I suppose.

T: At what sort of places did you play at and about how often did you play live back in those days?

Z: I don’t remember clearly, but I can say there were not a lot of times we played shows. To begin with, there were not a lot of places that would have us. The main live venue that we played at was a place called Quest. But we also played at places like the rooftop of a department store.

T: Occasionally I had seen in band interviews in the 80’s and such that you’d “played on the rooftop of a department store and the like”. I guess it’s a simple question, but, how did you go about booking? Was there someone in charge of something like that for a department store?

Z: No, no (laughs).

In our case, we just recruited participants with something like, “Hosting a gathering on the roof! Looking for local bands to perform on stage!”

T: A “noisecore gathering” on a department store roof under a blue sky, that sounds amazing (laughs).

Gudon’s 1986 release “Hika Shibou” (7” EP) is also an excellent record. The noisiness of the guitar seems suppressed since the previous release, and a reverb-y guitar sound can be heard on “Namari no Ai” that has a different feel from what you had done up to that point. While the shadow of ADK Sound is squirming, clad in gloomy melodies of Amebix and UK anarcho-punk, it feels fresh for its time. There is not an all-out devotion to speed, which was unusual for that time. Were you conscious of that, composing the song in mid-tempo?　

Z: Yeah. By nature, I have a contrary personality, with the habit of steering the ship in a different direction from what’s going on around me. Precisely at that time “thrash” was a word that started to become prevalent, and since everyone was making fast songs, I thought we should write a slow one. On “Hika Shibou” there is a song called “Stoic Violence”, and with that one also, everyone around us was doing short songs, so wrote it thinking we should do one that was unreasonably long. But if I listen now, it’s far too long in any circumstance, so recently I’ve been complaining to Shin (Guy), saying things like, “Why didn’t you stop me?!” (laughs)

T: When I listened to “Stoic Violence” at the time, I didn’t think it was long. It’s fast, and rather feels dramatic or majestic. In contrast to the mid-tempo “Namari no Ai”, I think in that sense the single was “new”. I think that contrast of tempo on songs from the A-side and B-side is common with the concept of the “Process” 7” EP by Judgement that came out later. 

So, at the time when you made “Hika Shibou”, were you at all influenced by bands like Amebix and so on? I always thought that reverb sound on the guitar was close to the feel of such UK bands from that area.

Z: I didn’t know of Amebix at the time. It’s probably my first time to hear the term “anarcho-punk” just now, so I guess there was no influence from them. As for the reverb sound, I was simply searching for a sound quality that would suit the chanting rhythm of “Namari no Ai” and arrived at that sound. So, I think I made heavy use of it because it felt so good. If you add reverb, maybe it feels good because it makes you sound more proficient?

T: You’ve also written lyrics for a majority of the songs. Do you find it an important part of song writing for you to link the guitar riffs to the words?

Z: Hmm, I wonder…

In the past, I never wrote the words first, I always wrote with the method of music first and adding lyrics on top of the music, but after Gudon with bands like Half Years, Bastard, or Judgement, basically I left the lyrics to the vocalist and only wrote them if I was asked me to. As previously mentioned, to have someone else’s words on top of my music doesn’t become so self-conceited and has more appeal. Now I really think so.

I don’t mean to sing my own praises, but there is a song by Judgement called “Just Be” with lyrics by Jhaja (ex-Lip Cream), and every time I listen to it really strikes me.

Of course the same goes for the bassist and drummer’s parts, but leaving it to others to come up with something ends up being much cooler and I think that way is also more fun.

T: In terms of entrusting the lyrics to the singer, in the case that you have written the riffs, have the bass and drum arrangement already been solidified to some extent before the lyrical direction? Or is it more a case of leaving the other parts to the other members in the same way as the vocals?

Z: At first in order to communicate the image of the song, it is often the case that I’ll mention that the other parts are “made it in this sort of image” about the essential point of the song. In my case, if I make a song just from guitar riffs, no matter what it ends up feeling narrow, so I make a point to imagine the complete picture of the song while writing it. If I don’t do that, it will simply become a song of just playing chords randomly about the fretboard. That’s why I after conveying the main image, there is stability in letting them change it as they like.

T: In 1987, Gudon released masterpieces in quick succession and with great vigour in “Howling Communication” (7” EP) from Selfish Records and on the “My Meat’s Your Poison” (various artists) compilation from Kagai Mousou Records. When I was in high school I enthusiastically copied songs like “Egger” and “Omae no Koto nado Shiran” on guitar. At the time one thing that I just couldn’t figure out was the tonal quality of the intro riff on “Maniac Point”- it sounded like a short delay that was doubled, or reverb with a lot of thickness in the sound, but what was that actually?

Z: I couldn’t remember those details well so I tried listening to the song again. The result on that one was just like “Namari no Ai” in that I had bought my first ever delay pedal in my life and was having so much fun with it that I just couldn’t help but want to use it. To intensify the effect I added an overdub (laughs).

If I listen to it now, it’s kind of interesting how you can hear the sound of the attack after the beat. Kind of like Ikkokudou (a Japanese ventriloquist famous for making his voice heard after the movements of his mouth).

T: Ah, it is just as I had thought! Finally my mystery of many years has been unraveled. I remember in my high school days after buying a Boss DD-2 (Digital Delay), I was trying to copy Gudon pushing certain settings and thinking, “It’s got to be this, right?” I think even when you played live with one guitar that it had an increasingly dense effect, so was that indeed your intention for using delay?

Z: Yes I did have that aim, but the number one reason is that I was just having fun playing with this new toy I just bought. And I played with it too much so I got tired of it and didn’t use it after that.

T: Gudon songs at that time seemed to be influenced by the dark and heavy sound of traditional UK hardcore while maintaining the unique style of Japanese hardcore. Did you also feel you had a positive taste toward US or European bands?

Z: At the time I was a record collector and had amassed quite an amount of records, and at the same time I was working part-time at the Hiroshima branch of UK Edison (new wave, punk, indie etc. record store), so daily from morning to night I was listening to large quantities of domestic and foreign punk, hardcore punk, new wave, and so on.

So without being particular about whether they were from the US, UK, Japan, or whatever country, I think I was influenced by what I thought sounded cool. It’s been said that our sound doesn’t have any uniformity or is inconstant, but I never understood what was bad about that. I always thought, “Wait, but isn’t that punk?” or “Does punk need uniformity or constancy?”

T: I fully understand that feeling.

At that time they didn’t call it “US hardcore” but “Ameha” (Japanese abbreviation of “American hardcore”). In my case, on the contrary as a result of having limited information, from what little information I had I didn’t care about the style and only what I thought was cool, listening to anything from noisecore to straight edge, to melodic stuff and so on. This is just my own conjecture but, bands of that time… US bands like Crucifix, No Fraud, Attitude Adjustment, early Adrenalin OD, early COC; Bands from the UK like Amebix, Ripcord, BGK from Holland, Inferno from Germany, Anti-Cimex from Sweden… Happy’s unique vocal quality on top of the mixed sound from influence of bands like that, fast with a lot of changes, that in a sense you can also call them catchy― I think that is the sound that became the one-and-only Gudon.

I know you were listening to an extensive range of punk/hardcore from the world over, but what were some of the bands you were especially into at the time (or even now)?

Z: From that time there are too many bands that I like, and if I try to list them it will be a ridiculous amount but:

Accused, Discharge, Broken Bones, English Dogs, Ohlo Seco, Antisect, Anti-System, Anti-Cimex, Crucifix, Amebix, Asta Kask, Ripcord, Offenders, Mau Maus, RKL, Inferno, BGK, Dead Kennedys, The Blood, Poison Idea, Misfits, Adrenalin OD, Concrete Sox, The Exploited, GBH, Chaos UK, Disorder, The Varukers, Battalion of Saints, Raw Power, Bad Brains, Black Flag, Final Conflict… there’s no end so I’ll stop here (laughs).

If I had to name one band that I currently love it would be Conflict. I can’t imagine who or how they compose, or how it was communicated to the other members to make songs like that. The riffs and progression and the performance, it’s all just too cool.

T: I’m delighted to hear that the bands you like are practically the exact same as me.

In terms of Conflict, for me “Ungovernable Force” is my favorite, but which album is your favorite?

Z: Same here. I think that album is their masterpiece. My favorite after that is “The Final Conflict”, and my favorite song is “Neither Is This” from the “This Is Not Enough” single.

T: “The Final Conflict” is a masterwork, loaded with dramatic and melancholy phrases. I think I get why “Neither Is This” would be your favorite, as it is more hard punk than hardcore. I mean, the tune is more punk than it is hardcore, you know?

There’s also a bit of a feeling of some melancholy Japanese phrasing.

Z: Of all Conflict albums, the guitar on “The Final Conflict” is the most profound, and I think it’s a masterwork where the more you listen the better it gets. And yeah, somehow Conflict really does have elements of sadness. I always got a strong Japanese-like impression from them.

T: In those days there was no internet, so how did you go about getting information on overseas bands and scenes? Was it as one might expect from magazines like Maximum Rock’n’Roll, Flipside or other zines?

Z: Yeah, information gathering back then was basically like that. Also Target Video and hearsay. That and going around to record stores and buying stuff based only on the record covers.

T: Did you do any tape trading?

Z: No, I didn’t really do any tape or record trading, although I did once with (punk/metal artist) Pushead of all people.

T: You took the role of producer on 1987’s “Keep the Fire Burning” by Chicken Bowels, also out of Hiroshima. Giving the record another listen, I felt like I could hear your influence on Motsu’s guitar sound. For your own band, and also when acting as producer for another band’s recording, what is it that you regarded as important?

Z: From those days Motsu stood out above the rest with his guitar skill and individuality, so I don’t think he could possibly be influenced by me, but regarding the sound on that record, it might be close to mine from the parts where I butted in. When I produce and also with my own band, I think it’s pretty weak when the guitar sound is set back or restrained in hardcore punk, so it’s an absolute requirement to bring the guitar to the forefront, yet I aimed for a sound that also brings all the other parts to the front the same amount. For example, even if the guitar is played with the same sound, when any of the vocals, drums, or bass sound changes the guitar also sounds different. Therefore, while searching for that balance and respecting the opinions of each member, I try to find a sound that everyone is happy with. That’s what I was aiming for. In that sense, producing might have been easier. When you are outside of the group, you can make a final decision.

T: I feel the same. It’s “guitar first”.

I see, while the direction is toward the guitarist, you are devoted to the role of producer to make judgements by grasping the whole sound image objectively. In some aspects while it is more at ease than your own band, at the same time did any part of it have more weight?

Z: No. It was completely easygoing (laughs).

If it’s my own band, no matter what I’ll pay too much attention to the other members, and I lose grasp of how much I should raise myself forward or pull myself back in the mix. Well, in either case I always put myself forward, though (laughs).

T: In doing so did you ever meet with any resistance from other members? If so how did you persuade them?

Z: Naturally there were times when opinions clashed. In those cases we throughly talked it out. Since I'd never back down, I think often the others gave in for my sake.


T: When getting the sound and into the mixing process, are there any bands/recordings etc. you used as a reference?

Z: Not especially, but I think there was some influence from Mike Stone. If I'm not mistaken, as the founder of Clay Records, I recall he had a lot to do with the production of the label's early releases. I always loved the sound on the releases of that period, like the expansiveness of the guitar and the attack of the snare.

T: Absolutely. In the mid-80’s those (records) had unique characteristics with their grainy and spatial guitar sound or the low-tuned snare with lots of gated reverb, that were really cool.

In 1987 you withdrew from Gudon, but for you was that a forward-looking way to further progress your ideal hardcore vision? Did you already have concrete ideas for a new band while you were still a member of Gudon?

Z: Uhh… I quit without having any vision for a new band (laughs). I just got fed up with a lot of things.

Because I was trying to look forward, frankly I just found the present state of things to be unbearable. Thinking back upon it now, I do think it was good I quit at the time, and Shin (Guy) has said that he too was able to change as a result of my quitting. If I listen to the following period of Gudon, it is as if my curse had been lifted to let them play freely, and they came up with some really cool stuff like “Void”, so I think it was a good thing.

T: Things did not by any means always go smoothly then.

Certainly the mood of the compositions changed since “Howling Communication”, and I remember at the time from a listener’s perspective feeling a progression to a new Gudon and being very excited by that.

Z: So, I decided to head to Tokyo, and getting everything in order and so on would take about a half year, and since Motsu from Chicken Bowels seemed to be free after Chicken Bowels broke up, we decided to form a band for only half a year. That’s how Half Years began. With Half Years I thought we should have a straight ahead sound that would be the complete opposite of Gudon. Because it was already decided the band would break up in half a year, that actually made it fun because there was no fighting and we were free to do what we wanted. Since we only had a half year it meant there was no time to waste. If I think about it now, that could be my ideal type of band (laughs).

-postscript-

This time, the main theme was Zigyaku’s first band, Gudon, and we spoke extensively about the details of their formation, his way of thinking and attitude about music, as well as favorite bands and even films. I hope that you could catch a glimpse into the figure of Zigyaku as a guitarist/musician, the history of Gudon, and Japanese hardcore punk as a fragment of world-class music, all that you perhaps didn’t yet know about.

Takeshi

Translated by Greg Mudarri

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