Pogo Is Alive! An interview with 80s Deutsch Punk band Scapegoats

If there’s one thing I love most about hardcore, it’s the international network of friends. The sharing of information, and music, and a deep connection most normal people cannot even fathom. Ever tried to explain to a normal person that you know people in countless cities across the world? It’s something highly unique to the subculture. Scapegoats from West Germany were deeply entrenched in the early 80s hardcore explosion writing letters, doing zines, comping tapes, and building that original network of friends before they even had a record out. When I originally conducted this interview, I felt like Scapegoats was not really in a lot of the same discussions as bands like Vorkriegsphase, Malinheads, and other raw 80s German hardcore everyone seemed to love, but as time has gone on I’ve watched them get more and more exposure and respect they were due. Their Kopflos 7’’ is an absolute monster of a record filled with a unique kind of power, and their tape releases have that incredible ramshackle 80s tape comp band style. I hadn’t seen much about them, and decided to track them down Kalle (Karl) and Henning to talk about their band, German punk, and more.  

GS: Can you tell us a bit about how Scapegoats started, and some history of the band?

Henning: The first try to form a band was in the spring of 1981 and it was called Anti Police. The lineup then was Karl on vocals and Ulf on guitar, and the first song "Umweltkrank" was written. Karl bought a cheap bass guitar he couldn´t play but very soon two guys from the same school Thomas on drums and Helge on bass were added and the name was changed to Exzess. Then the name changed to Kalle & Die Original Legoländer. About 15 songs were written and recorded but never released.

Karl left the band in February 1982 for personal reasons and was replaced by me. Scapegoats were born. We wrote a lot of new stuff and made many recordings with bad equipment. Ulf was a genius and tried his best to make that stuff listenable. He later became a sound engineer in the ‘90s and produced many good bands. The sound of the first Scapegoats line up was much slower and "calmer" than the later recordings then, but it was a lot of fun.

In October/November ‘82 drummer Thomas left the band and Karl the former singer was asked to rejoin. Karl bought a new drum set and the sound became much faster and harder. Some of the following recordings became the "Pogo Lebt" tape. After some problems with Helge and another bass player, we recruited Olav from Koma A, and that led to the final 4-piece outfit in September ‘83: Ulf - guitar, Karl - drums, Olav - bass, Henning - voc. This lineup released the "Last Attack" tape and recorded also some really brutal sounding practice sessions.

In ‘84 there was something strange happening over here, the punk scene was drifting more and more into stupidity, drugs, alcohol and the whole creativity and shock value was gone. Ok, there was still a secret contest which leather jacket could have the most studs (laughs)...the "turning point" for many old punks were the Chaos Days 1984 in Hannover. Many old punks were fed up with the scene, shaved their heads and many friends became enemies overnight. I also shaved my head and had to leave the band. Maybe Chucks & a bandana would have been a wiser decision than boots & braces...oh well, that came years later, but that´s another story...

The other 3 continued as a trio, played some gigs and became much more professional. But I still think the aggressive edge got lost some way. Then came the 7" and that was the end of the band somehow... Olav left the punk scene forever, Karl, Ulf and I played in other bands and we were involved in other things too. We also saw each other regularly until the mid ‘90s and went to many gigs together.

Kalle (Karl): Oh, yeah, nice and cool to be asked about the old days. Not many real memories are still in my head. But yeah, Henning is right so far. Well, maybe I think a bit different about that change in 1984 Henning was talking about. I was and I am still addicted to punk rock, maybe more than I ever was. Even the big Chaos Days in Hannover 1984 where I was at didn’t change my mind. Yes, we continued as a three-piece band. At the beginning I was taking over the vocals as well as the drumming. But to be honest, it was horrible. We did some “2 track’’ recordings in our basement and even got 2 tracks on a nice German compilation LP called "Let’s Have More Fun", which is totally rare now as only 300 copies were made of the first edition. Our 2 tracks were so badly recorded they said that we were dropped from the second edition.

In 1984 we went into a real studio for the first time. But hey, I remember just two more things. While I was out in 1982 from the band Exzess mainly through personal stuff, I got a tape from the new formed Scapegoats and send it to the now famous Berlin label “Pogar’’. I was ordering records from them very regularly. Mainly while phoning them up. And at that time they were really keen on new bands, especially bands who were more into that new started wave called hardcore. So I sent Andreas Kelling, the owner, the tape with Scapegoats on it. But he said it might not be so good for doing a single or so now, but maybe in the future.

Later, maybe ‘82 or so we checked out a little studio here in Kiel and asked how much it would cost to record something and they said something like 90 Deutschmark per hour. And we thought, hell, this is a lot of money and cancelled it. Wish we only recorded one or two hours.

Yeah, and on, as I said, in 1984 we went into a real studio for the first time, in Marbostel, near Hannover. We stayed there the whole evening and recorded about 8 or 10 tracks. Quite good. But it was never released as a tape or on vinyl in any way. Only a few tracks appeared on compilation tapes in Germany and abroad.

We only had a few gigs with this three-piece line up. One great gig was here in Kiel at the still going ex-squat Alte Meierei where we played on a 2-day festival in October 1985. Later that year we went into the famous 24 track masterplan studio in Hildesheim. Famous for that guy Stefan, guitarist in Mottek. He had done lots of great recordings.

Yeah, and as a result the Kopflos EP was released on the new founded label called Dissonance by a guy named Oliver Wacha. 1st pressing were 800 copies. Later the guy pressed another, I am not really sure, 300 - 400 copies, in red vinyl. Nowadays I have contact with him again and he told me he found 400 copies (without cover though) in the cellar. Unbelievable! (Editors Note: After learning this, I tried to get in touch to get that Dissonance Stock sitting in the cellar, but was unsuccessful. However, a few years after that, all of the stock that was not damaged was recovered, and sold with repro covers, and included Scapegoats, HHH, and others)

Well, this three-piece line up existed till 1986, I think. We recorded a bunch of new tracks that sounded a bit different then the stuff from the 7". Maybe it was because we all listened to this, sometimes, poppy, U.S. Punk music that was famous and well known in ‘86.

GS: What were your influences like during the earlier years?

Henning: Influences? A guy who once found an old Scapegoats info-sheet years later in my flat read the thanks-list and his comment was: "You were real posers, Ey?". No way!  We just listed the people as influences we exchanged stuff with and that were Wretched, Eu’s Arse, BGK, Pandemonium, Crude SS, Kaaos, Mob 47, Kohu-63, Anti Cimex, Olho Seco, Heimat Los just to name a few... I still love and listen to all of these bands today. From the new bands I really like Desperat from Sweden a lot... Great local bands that released good records over the last years are/were Bonehouse, Suburban Scumbags and the mighty Smoke Blow...

GS: Being obviously inspired by Discharge wouldn’t you rather not have been “no fucking scapegoats”? What made you decide on the name?

Henning: If I remember this correct, the name was inspired by the song “No Scapegoat" that was on the first Varukers single. Still have my copy.

But we all loved...really loved early Discharge. Not that band that uses their name nowadays...

GS: What got you interested in punk, and how was the early punk scene in West Germany?

Henning: First it was the music: ACDC > Kiss > Ramones > Sex Pistols > UK Subs > Dead Kennedys > Discharge > Kaaos ... That was my musical evolution from 13 to 17.

When Karl lent me his copy of Maximum Rocknroll vol. 2 I was totally hooked on writing a fanzine, playing in a band, make a compilation and to communicate with all these people around the world that seemed to share the same ideas. It was great to receive all these letters, zines, tapes records etc. And it became kind of an underground network. As a result of all the tape trading I finally released one of the first international tape compilations over here called "Lärmattacke" (means noise attack). There was also Lärmattacke 2 and 3 but the finished master for number 4 never saw a release because everyone seemed to release tape compilations then and it got boring. But maybe there will be a vol. 5 someday....

The information from the letters plus some additional interviews and reviews were published as the Anti-System fanzine. There are many articles on early German punk and hardcore in the first 20 issues of MRR. Karl wrote a very good scene report in vol. 12 If I remember that correctly and you would need some more pages to reprint it here (laughs) (Editor Note: MRR No. 11 has the specific Germany scene report Karl wrote, if any curious punks want to read it, I’m going to tack this at the bottom of the interview along with the Germany report in vol. 12 which mostly advertises the previously mentioned Chaos Days 1984 gig)

Kalle: Well, musically maybe nearly the same as Henning wrote. I was introduced by some class mates in 1979 who listed to new wave and punk rock. And from this point on I was infected. Of course the look of the punk rockers, and the behavior of ‘em made me go crazy, and above all, the rebellion against parents, school, and authority.

GS: From someone who was in the punk scene before the Berlin wall fell, what was it like as a band there? Were you ever in contact with bands from East Germany? Did you know they existed?

Henning: East Germany was like a big prison with unfriendly and rude armed guards on the border. That border was heavy fortified and people got killed when they tried to escape. The whole East German part was "grey in grey" and very depressing. Punks were harassed and put in prison and it was nearly impossible to get in contact with people from there. If you compare the DDR and the 3rd Reich from a very simple point of view there were many similarities. The DDR army even used the old SS uniforms with updated patches...

There was one record released in Berlin on the AGR label from Saukerle but that was it. It was impossible to meet East German punks or get any recordings from there. I got very few letters from East German punks asking for info and stuff, and sent some tapes & zines but I think they never made it over there...

In ‘89 I met some ex-DDR punks in Berlin and travelled with them to some gigs around Germany.. They had some really bad horror stories to share...

Kalle: To look back it’s really a pity that we had no contact to punks from East Germany. Nowadays there is so much information and tapes / music from all these bands that existed behind the iron curtain in the early ‘80s. Well, I can only speak for myself, I was writing with many many people in Germany and the rest of the world in the early ‘80s, but I cannot remember ever writing to someone in East Germany.

GS: You didn’t release Pogo Lebt demo until ’83, 2 years after you formed, and the 7’’ until ‘86. Why the huge gaps in between?

Henning: In the beginning there were no real instruments and we had to organize some stuff. That took time. The first drum set for example consisted of a snare drum, one cymbal and an original drum that was used in World War II... Later Karl bought a complete drum set and that was the real starting point for the band in late ‘82. Then the 2 demos were recorded. The first one was a 30-minute tape called Pogo Lebt (pogo is alive) that was recorded on one evening. There are another 30 minutes on the back of the tape with some unreleased stuff. I don´t know why we only released half of it. The tape distributed very well, most copies were traded, we made several hundred copies. The second tape "Last Attack" was a compilation from various practices in Ulf´s basement before we got thrown out and there were only 50 to 100 copies made.

We desperately wanted to record a 7" vinyl single all the time but it was impossible. None of us had that much money as we were still in school, and there weren´t many labels back then.

GS: Kalle did the fanzine called Anti-System, and was pretty involved in tape trading. What else were Scapegoats involved in?

Kalle: Yeah, it was great doing that zine. And, of course it was done not by me alone. Ulf and Henning worked on it, too. Well, not regular but from time to time they wrote articles too, helped copying it and bringing it into the local music stores here in Kiel. 10 issues were published. From no. 10  I think 500 copies were printed. The first time we let it print.  Yeah, and tape trading was a very big thing at that time and meant a lot to me. Through this I got to know many penpals all over the world. And also I was doing 2 international comp. tapes, like Henning also did with Lärmattacke. My first one was called “Noise Attack’’ and more then 500 copies were sold worldwide. Even Pushead ordered 20 copies or so for his mailorder in 1984. The next one was called “Infernal Noise’’ but at that time international comp. tapes became quite famous and many people were doing them, so I didn’t sell that much. So I gave it up after that.

GS: Scapegoats were featured in the 1985 Japanese punk magazine done by Charmy of Laughin Nose, and Sakevi of GISM called Punk On Wave. This was part of an article on German hardcore bands before you even had a vinyl record out. Was Scapegoats popular in Germany at the time or playing a lot of live shows?

Kalle: Yeah, speaking of that article in that Japanese fanzine Punk On Wave, I got a photo copy of those 2 or 3 just lately where they wrote something about Scapeagoats and even had a photo of us in it too. I got it from a good friend called Cliff from another town nearby, who was in contact with the GISM singer Sakevi. Some friends of Cliff sent all this info about German punk to Japan, this is why this article appeared in it.

Henning: Too bad I only ever had issue 1 and 3 of that magazine... Scapegoats were never really that popular in Germany and we didn´t play many shows because there weren´t that many shows here in the early 80s. But there were often friends at our band practices every Friday and it ended up in a wild party most of the time. We once organized a concert here in Kiel with Blut & Eisen  from Hannover, Razzia  from Hamburg, and Scapegoats that was a total disaster for us. We were the first band and were too nervous and drunk to play. Just 10 to 15 minutes of out-of-tune noise. The other 2 bands were great but it was a very aggressive event. In the end most of the money and some equipment was stolen, people got beaten up and we never organized something again after that.... We only did one out of town gig in Sarstedt near Hannover when Ulf got his first car. We were really drunk and bad but the trip was great as far as I can remember...

But that were the pre-internet times so you had to copy tapes, write letters etc. To communicate. That was what Karl and I did and we send and traded our demos around the globe and were on many compilations and in many zines. I guess that Scapegoats were more popular in other countries than in Germany.

GS: Your 7’’ was bootlegged in Japan. This is quite interesting to me as it is the opposite of the normal trend of 80’s Japanese bands being continually bootlegged in Germany.  Anyways I doubt that this was some sort of retribution for the dozens of German bootlegs of rare Japanese punk records. Do you have any thoughts on the German obsession with Japanese hardcore punk prevalent even in the ‘80s, and why do you think so many bootlegs have been made in Germany?

Henning: Not exactly bootlegged, but we never got the promised free records nor the test pressing...nothing. The cover is a really bad print-job and looked much better in the original. There are also several pressings and I think that guy Yuki Asai made some pretty penny with it. But I really don´t care anymore about that shit... Hopefully all the people that asked for the 7" were able to get a cheap copy then and enjoy the music.

I don´t know why so many Japanese records were bootlegged over here. Maybe because they were exotic? To be honest I don´t think there are that many good records from Japan, What I liked was The Clay 7", GISM’s first lp, all the Death Side stuff, Bastard LP, Gil 7"s , Etae and that´s it for me. I always preferred the Scandinavian and early European stuff (laughs) But I had some really nice pen-friends from Japan over the years. They also offered us a mini-tour.

GS: I know Scapegoats had a lot of songs that never made it to vinyl, even the later era after the 7’’, were you planning to do more records? Why did the band break up?

Henning: I honestly don´t know why the band broke up. Maybe because Olav left the band? We always wanted to release at least a 7" or better a LP as a 4-piece but it never happened. I remastered some of the rehearsal stuff several years ago and there will be a or double tape with both demos as a limited edition box-set (Editors Note, this came out in 2013 or 2014). There will also be a free download available to all interested.

GS: Are Scapegoats still active in the punk scene now? Were there any bands after Scapegoats?

Henning: There were several bands: Go Ahead, Tiny Giants, Bonehouse, Madison, Suburban Scumbags to name a few. The first Go Ahead and Tiny Giants tapes are real gems and worth a listen. At the moment I plan to reprint the best articles from Anti-System vol. 1 to 10 with a much better layout but I need Karl’s help to fill the blanks. Some stuff got lost over the years. It will be released as a limited print run and also as a free download. And maybe there will be another Lärmattacke or Noise Attack compilation in the near future. A double LP would be great - one LP with new bands and the other with some of the old stuff. But I still like tapes and maybe that´s the format of choice. We´ll see...

Kalle: Well, me, I played after Scapegoats in different local bands, always as a drummer. The famous one being Bonehouse who I founded in 1993, and split up in 2006.  We released several CDs, LPs and EPs etc, even toured France three times and played lots of gigs all over Germany. It was a very very intense and sometimes excessive time for all of us.  You can check it out at www.bonehouse.de 

After that I haven’t played drums, but still have my kit somewhere. I have now a regular job, which I haven’t had all the years before. Being on the dole is no fun. And being a father now of a daughter I’d rather spend most free time from my shift work with her. But from time to time I go to gigs and hang out with my old, and younger, mates which is still great fun though!

GS: Any last words?

Kalle: Thanks a lot for showing interest in our old band Scapegoats. Stay punk, stay free and walk always your way!!!

Henning: Thanks for your interest and doing this interview. It´s great that the old days are not forgotten and that there are still people interested after 30 years. I won´t say these "old days" were better - they were different - but I sometimes miss that craziness and that careless life we led then. Also getting in contact with Karl again for this interview was a good thing. Great that there are some people left... Never trust the media... Make up your own mind!